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New Jack of All Trades
#11
(08-18-2015, 11:00 PM)Mr. F Wrote: If the intent is to make JoaT3 not useful to players who already primarily heal, then that's the goal.
I'm confused by this. Are you suggesting that the intention of JoaT1 is to make it not useful to players who already wear armor or use shields, or that the intention of JoaT2 is to make it not useful to players who already shoot guns or throw stuff?
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#12
Not everyone is going to agree with every rule in the book. In this instance, I respectfully disagree that JoAT is useless at rank 3. It's something I am willing to revisit next revision if more folk have an issue with it. We specifically addressed the things that we got the most feedback on for this revision. We received minimal feedback on Jack.
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#13
I've felt the Jack of all Trades tree is one meant to round out a character - reduce specialization with braoder focus - as the name would imply.

I feel like its primary users are going to be support players who want to be able to defend themselves, but it shouldn't be abhorrent to a combat character, either. A Gunner could gain the ability to use a melee weapon, a meleer could get thrown or a sidearm for ranged protection. As well as armor they didnt buy in leu of SIC trees, or a final support ability to help out their crew.

I've recommended adding non-stacking Endurance 1 or Vigor 1 to the first tier so that players who have no interest in shields/armor, or already have one of those, aren't forced into it - but overall I think the tier is really interesting as is.

The second tier offers all three kinds of weaponry's first skill. You get to choose how to do your combat based on preference. I think this tier is excellent.

Currently, JoaT3 is nigh useless to a Medic or a Surgeon. I wouldn't say it's useless to everyone - there are people in my squad who are excited to get Medic 1 so they can support the team better - but for the people who already HAVE medic, it does not feel like there is an appropriate or useful choice. That is the argument I'm trying to make.

I've always felt that Jack of all Trades should be the sort of tree that could be useful to almost anyone - you make a choice of specialization or being, well, the master of none.
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#14
Personally, I always saw JoaT at the "You're in the army now, boy! Here's some armor, a gun, and a medkit. Get to work!" skill, with a couple of variations on the theme.

I'm kind of confused about the complaint re:JoaT3. I don't know that I really see how JoaT fails at being the master of none. Yes, JoaT3 is nigh-useless to a medic or surgeon. JoaT1 is nigh-useless to anyone wanting to reduce damage from dromanae. JoaT2 is nigh-useless to anyone who wants to play a dual-wielding sword swinger/gunner, as well as anyone wanting to use clip and/or electric weapons. That's rather the point, isn't it? At some point, we're coming down to "but I really want a different option for me", aren't we?

I mean, to be clear, it's not like we're talking about a game-breaking issue here, right? Worst case, we cap out our characters at 14XP instead of 15.

I think in general, we need to divorce ourselves from the idea that the game is meant to always have a useful way to spend 15XP for every character concept. I don't know that I'll ever buy JoaT3 for Nate. That's fine. There's plenty of other things to do. The game doesn't become less fun because I could have spent 1 more XP if only there was something I wanted to and could buy with my skill trees.
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#15
If what John proposes is the purpose of Jack of All Trades, we should consider it being "Basic Training" instead. Jack of all trades implies a level of versatility beyond what is expected of a standard soldier. The proverbial jack of all trades and master of none can take on any task at a decent level, but not the level of one who is an expert.

Shields work against Dominae, so JoaT1 does allow for defense against droms. It doesn't allow for dual wielding at JoaT2, because it is supposed to be the basic level of those skills. It feels appropriate to me that if you want to dual wield, you would actually get the tree. If someone wanted to wear armor to defend against claws, then they would want to pick up the Armor tree. Someone who wants a little more ranged defense and offense for their Technician/Gadgeteer/Scientist/Vigor would get JoaT and get Armor 1 and Firearms 1.

I also strongly, STRONGLY disagree that there is a 14 point spec instead of 15. In any single focused tree, there are no dud points. There are a few occasional spots of redundancy, depending on how you build, but those are generally rare (Weapon Jack and Finesse both offer Condemn with ranged, for example). Most of the skills are spread between SICs instead.

The fact you can only pick five trees is a strong limitation. If there is a tree with a dud point in it, then that feels like poor game design. There should be serious and interesting considerations between trees - it should be a hard choice on how to wrap it up. JoaT has that within each level. It shouldn't be a must have tree - and I don't think that it is at all - but I still believe that the third teir is significantly more limiting than the other two.

If you look at the choices as they stand now:

Jack of all trades 1:
Active defense (Shield)
Passive Defense (Armor)

Jack of all trades 2:
Melee
Ranged (Firearms)
Alternate Ranged (Thrown)

Jack of all trades 3:
Medkit use and health sense
Medkit use and help counselors

The first two choices are much more interesting than the final choice.
How will I defend myself from attacks?
How will I attack?
and then... What else can I do besides use a medkit?

I (obviously) feel strongly that JoaT could offer much more than it does, and still not be a "Must have" tree. I would never want it to be that. Hell, even if you add every suggestion I've made, Medic 1 may be the most common choice - but it'll help fine tune styles of play for people who want to go down this path.
It's only level 1 in each of those paths. Not even close to the strongest abilities in them. The tip of the iceberg of that tree.
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#16
(08-21-2015, 02:25 AM)Mr. F Wrote: Shields work against Dominae, so JoaT1 does allow for defense against droms.
Sure, but you can't outright Resist them.

Quote:I also strongly, STRONGLY disagree that there is a 14 point spec instead of 15.
I'm reminded of the scene in A Few Good Men: "I object!" "Over ruled." I STRONGLY object!" "Oh, well, then I should rethink this." Not trying to pick a fight, just amused at the thought-chain. Smile

Quote:In any single focused tree, there are no dud points.
False. Personally, I find Firearms 2 and 3 a bit of wasted space - straight up, I will probably never buy them for any of my characters (heck, I doubt I'll ever buy the nerf to use them), so clearly if I bought on that tree, I'd be capped out at 13 points. Likewise, I haven't seen a substantial need for Tech 3 (hell, I can pick locks better than the average bear anyways), so I'll probably never buy that. So, with my first character, I already discovered I'd probably be capped at 12 XP. I'm not too worried about it. At some point I'll trade out Firearms for JoaT, and get a couple extra skills for it.

Quote:The first two choices are much more interesting than the final choice.
How will I defend myself from attacks?
How will I attack?
and then... What else can I do besides use a medkit?
Or, if you prefer, "How will I help others?".

You make the claim that dud points are bad game design. I would disagree. Skill trees and choices that make a character unplayable is bad game design. Skill trees/choices that are suboptimal are generally predicated on play style, not on design. For you, JoaT3 is suboptimal because it doesn't suit your play style. As you noted, many of your friends actually like the options, because it suits theirs. Somewhere along the way, I think we need to determine for ourselves whether or not playing a game that doesn't 100% fit our play style makes the game unplayable and unenjoyable to us, and if so, choose not to play.
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#17
(08-07-2015, 11:25 AM)John Pariury II Wrote: False. Personally, I find Firearms 2 and 3 a bit of wasted space - straight up, I will probably never buy them for any of my characters (heck, I doubt I'll ever buy the nerf to use them), so clearly if I bought on that tree, I'd be capped out at 13 points. Likewise, I haven't seen a substantial need for Tech 3 (hell, I can pick locks better than the average bear anyways), so I'll probably never buy that. So, with my first character, I already discovered I'd probably be capped at 12 XP. I'm not too worried about it. At some point I'll trade out Firearms for JoaT, and get a couple extra skills for it.

We can argue that point when I bring my hail fire and send 166 darts in your direction. Smile
William Myers aka Cossak Symon Jenkins
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#18
Overkill much? Smile

To be honest, until The Hive is fielding 4-to-1 against me, I don't feel the need for that many shots. But again, that's all about play style. Doesn't fit me, so I am better served choosing a different tree.
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#19
The term "jack-of-all-trades" is a common term for this kind of skill, so we went with it for the familiarity. Just like our NPCs are still player but it's a commonly understood term in the LARP / gaming community.

As for the "poor design choice", I will have to respectfully disagree. You are welcome to that opinion but just because it doesn't work for your character, doesn't make it a dud. There are plenty of people using all three ranks to their full potential. You could honestly say that about a lot of things that are specific to a character or type of character. "I don't want X ability in this path, so it's a dud."

To illustrate, I want to play a non-combatant hacker but I really want to round the character out. Jack one and three are awesome for that but I don't want to fight, so 2 is now useless to me, does that mean rank 2 is also a dud?
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#20
As someone with the upcoming decision to pick a final tree, I really want Jack, if not for the third dot being just for healing. Each other tree had some choice associated with it, whereas Jack III is just healing or healing, as opposed to being useful for everyone. I think that if we expanded the third dot of Jack III to be, get the first tier in any non-SIC path. Everyone, at least on an in game level can find use of shields or armor, and having a gun, sword or throwing weapon is useful to everyone (even noncombatants should be able to defend themselves as they run away or fend off until reinforcements come in to save their ass). opening this up to allowing the versatility of being able to pick any non-SIC path seems to me to fit the theme and path perfectly.

Alternatively, if that seems like its too much, having it be limited to support stuff as opposed to the combat focus in the first two tiers, the choice between Medic 1, Nurse 1, Scientist 1, Comms 1, Merchant 1, Hacker 1, Technician 1, or Gadgeteer 1. This maintains that each rank has a choice to make in which way you want your character to go, while maintaining a support theme for the third dot. If nothing else, I really think that more options for the third dot, as opposed to the current two are going to be nothing but beneficial.
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